Policing Project Faculty Director Barry Friedman joins Yahoo Finance’s Zack Guzman to discuss the recent push for U.S. police reform as protests continue throughout the country over George Floyd's death.

Video Transcript

ZACK GUZMAN: As protesters continue to call for police reform following the death of George Floyd in police custody, in Minneapolis, real reform is gaining support at the highest level of politics. Former Vice President Joe Biden made it a pillar of his speech earlier this week to include specific mention to implement changes that may have shown improvements to policing on a local level, including banning police chokeholds and bolstering accountability over the use of force. Here's what he had to say in that speech.

JOE BIDEN: I call on the Congress to act this month on measures that will be the first step in this direction, starting with real police reform. Congressman Jeffries has a bill to outlaw chokeholds. Congress should put it on the president's desk in the next few days. There are other measures to stop transferring weapons of war to police forces, improve oversight and accountability, to create a model use-of-force standard. That also should be made law this month. No more excuses, no delays.

ZACK GUZMAN: Of course, some local police departments haven't waited for national action, as the chief of police in Camden, New Jersey shared with us on the show earlier this week. They credited those reforms and others in helping them get to the point of marching hand-in-hand with Black Lives Matter protesters and avoiding the same police brutality that has played out at other demonstrations around the country, as well as the issues that have plagued other police departments around the country. And joining us now for more on that is the man who helped Camden institute those changes years ago, the faculty director at NYU Law's Policing Project Barry Friedman joins us now.

And Professor Friedman, I mean, when we look at this, obviously, there are a few things right now that advocates are pushing for. And they're seemingly simple changes but so impactful when you think about three officers failing to take a fourth off as he holds his knee on another human for eight minutes. But one of those changes, specifically that duty to intervene, would have made it a part of their training to make sure that they did step in to prevent that. So how has it changed the police forces that you've worked with that have instituted seemingly simple changes so far?

BARRY FRIEDMAN: Good to see you, Zack. There was a big debate in the country a few years ago about how use of force should be regulated. And that consensus view, even among those people in law enforcement who are most reluctant, was that a lot of the things you've mentioned needed to happen, and then there were standards even of that. So in Camden, we sort of went and said, what are the best elements of everything? And let's put them in one policy. And I think having done that and then vetted it with the ACLU and the Fraternal Order of Police and the community has made a real big difference in the way everybody sees that police department.

ZACK GUZMAN: Yeah, and right now, there does seem to be a push, at least in the way of actually capitalizing on the effort right now, the anger being shown across the country to actually bring a lot of attention to the police reform issues that I know you've worked on for years. Specifically, one of those groups right now is highlighting it with the hashtag #8CantWait. That's been gaining attention, even Oprah right now giving her support for Campaign Zero, the group behind that. But they highlight a few different things, including what we heard Joe Biden just talking about in terms of banning chokeholds, requiring de-escalation, trying to prevent the use of force. What are you seeing in the statistics that come from instituting those changes?

BARRY FRIEDMAN: Oh, I think you see a lot less use of force and a lot fewer injuries when you institute those changes, and I don't think those changes are rocket science. I mean, if you stop and think about it, there's been resistance in policing circles, but most all of them, including finding ways to de-escalate situations to exhaust other ways that you can resolve the situation without using force, using force as a last resort, caring about the sanctity of life, not shooting at moving vehicles, there's a lot of-- because other people get hurt-- a lot of this is not rocket science. And it also doesn't endanger officers if they're properly trained. I think it's the right way to go, and we actually think every state should have a law that mandates this.

ZACK GUZMAN: If it's not rocket science, and it does seem like a lot of people are in agreement now, why has it taken so long for that agreement to be reached? And what has been the pushback maybe from police groups or just from general politicians saying that this wasn't something that was needed until 2020?

BARRY FRIEDMAN: Well, back in the 1980s, the Supreme Court said that the only thing that you have to do to meet the constitutional requirements is use force in an objectively reasonable way at the moment that you use it. So even though you could have avoided the situation 20 minutes earlier by not bursting into a house, doesn't matter. So it's an incredibly favorable standard for the police, and so you can see why they like it. It gives them an enormous amount of leeway. You'd like to know you can come on the air and do anything you want and never have anybody criticize you for it. So you get that huge favoring of it by the police and then opposition by police unions and police to changing the standards.

ZACK GUZMAN: And when you talk about those standards, I mean, obviously, right now, Minneapolis has been the case that a lot of people have been applying these changes to. When you look specifically at that example and the way that the officers who stood by in that example here have now been charged, in your experience, I guess the question becomes, sure, those charges have been brought, but under the last I guess set of rules here, what is your belief in how that goes forward in actually getting those charged is prosecuted and what that could look like, based on the way that these old rules were in place?

BARRY FRIEDMAN: Yeah, at The Policing Project, we refer to having these rules in place as front-end accountability as opposed to back end, which is criminal prosecutions and trying to punish people after the fact. And the lesson you learn is you'll have a much better chance on the back end if you've got a strong front end. It's only logical. If you're real clear about what the rules are, then it's easier to discipline them for violating the rules. If you're mushy on what the rules are, it's harder to discipline them for that.

And so, you know, part of the reason that prosecutions are being brought is because some of what they did is prohibited in Minneapolis Police Department's policies. But that policy also is built up that Supreme Court case, Graham versus Connor, which gives a lot of discretion. And that combination is going to complicate things, I think, in Minneapolis.

ZACK GUZMAN: And I guess lastly, though, we're seeing a lot of the efforts now to apply some of these things nationally. What are the hopes and fears of something like that happening versus going the local route and getting some of these things instituted on a much more local approach?

BARRY FRIEDMAN: Well, I think every state should have a law. It's just crazy to think that, you know, the folks in-- the police department in one town can decide they're going to use force in a particular way. And then a town next door, they're going to use that differently. It's tricky at the federal level because of limitations of the federal constitution.

You either have to entice the states to do that, which is how they changed their drinking laws, by threatening to withhold a big chunk of federal funds, or you have to use the 14th amendment, which requires you to prove that this is a pervasive problem all over the country. Now, I think you can prove that with use of force, but that would be a serious debate in Congress. And so it ought to happen at the-- certainly should happen at the local level, ought to happen at the state level, probably can happen at the federal level but it's a little bit of a harder push.

ZACK GUZMAN: All right, we'll see what happens as that push continues with protests across the country. With Barry Friedman, Policing Project faculty director, appreciate you chatting with us.

BARRY FRIEDMAN: Good talking, Zack.